John and Charles discuss the complex roots of the New Apostolic Reformation (NAR), tracing it back through the Latter Rain movement and exposing its deep ties to authoritarian frameworks laid in the 1940s. They examine the influential role of John Wimber and the Vineyard Movement in uniting various strands of Latter Rain theology—particularly through Wimber’s associations with the Shepherding Movement, the Kansas City Prophets, and figures like Paul Cain. The episode emphasizes how key Latter Rain doctrines, such as five-fold ministry and the Manifested Sons of God, re-emerged in modified forms under Wimber’s leadership, setting the stage for what C. Peter Wagner later named the NAR. Despite reform efforts late in Wimber’s life, Charles and John argue that the foundational control structures remained intact and dangerous.<br /><br />The conversation repeatedly returns to the danger of reforming a toxic system without changing its core foundations. Charles warns that removing a central figure like Branham while preserving the underlying authoritarian dynamics leaves people vulnerable to re-victimization in sister movements. Wimber’s role is critically examined—not only for promoting dangerous doctrines but for platforming problematic figures like Cain, who brought radical Latter Rain teachings into the mainstream. Both hosts stress the importance of recognizing loaded language and historical continuity to avoid falling into rebranded expressions of the same high-control systems.<br /><br />00:00 Introduction<br />01:14 Origins of the New Apostolic Reformation<br />02:46 Complex legacy of John Wimber<br />04:03 Why examining Latter Rain branches matters<br />05:04 The three senior branches of Latter Rain<br />07:14 Early influence on the Jesus People Movement<br />08:46 Birth of the Third Wave of Pentecostalism<br />10:02 Doctrines merging inside the Vineyard Movement<br />11:08 What makes a cult: story of a Branhamite pastor<br />12:56 Cult structure without a central figure<br />14:54 The foundation beneath modern churches<br />16:26 Subtracting William Branham still leaves the system<br />17:46 Why “reformation” isn’t always safe<br />19:04 Comparing Vineyard splits with Message splits<br />20:11 Wimber’s friendship with Shepherding leaders<br />22:00 Cross-pollination of authoritarian teachings<br />23:29 Deliverance teachings and loaded language<br />24:52 Joel’s Army and coded speech in revival culture<br />26:53 Signs and wonders versus Jesus’ message<br />31:02 Wimber’s legacy and complicity<br />33:28 Breakdown of what the audience was really absorbing<br />35:03 Clip preview: altered states and authority<br />37:11 Response to the clip and disturbing implications<br />38:01 Attempts to control the historical narrative<br />39:40 Patterns repeating from Branham to present<br />41:00 Doctrines can change but the danger remains<br />43:02 Language hijacking and parallel definitions<br />44:02 Kansas City Prophets join Vineyard<br />45:44 Paul Cain’s promotion and influence<br />47:06 Traveling evangelists and spread of teachings<br />48:02 Final destination metaphor for false reform<br />49:08 Attempts to keep th
